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I have been having a discussion with a friend about the WELS stand on scouting. He says that based on the WELS argument on scouting, we therefore, as WELS people, should not be using the US currency because on it it says, "In God We Trust" (it doesn't say "In the Triune God" or something of a similar nature). He also says that we shouldn't be saying the Pledge of Allegiance due to the phrase "one nation under God"...again he says there is nothing that shows the Triune God, AND we are also lumping ourselves into one with everyone, no matter what their religion...basically a fellowship issue. Can you comment on this please?
Joining the Scouts is a voluntary act which involves one in endorsing the views of the organization. We do not endorse either the motto "In God We Trust" nor the claim that the USA is "one nation under God." We do not have control over what is printed on US currency any more than Christians in the Soviet Union or the Roman Empire had control over communist or pagan symbols that was on their currency. Using the currency of a country is not an act of fellowship endorsing the religion of that country nor does it necessarily express admiration for the person whose portrait is on the money. It does acknowledge the authority of the government in financial matters. Getting and sending mail is not an expression of agreement with every idea that is endorsed on stamps, though we may choose to avoid some stamps if we can.
Many Christians do not use the pledge because it can be misleading if it implies that the US is a nation that submits to God's will. If it means that the nation is under God's providence, then it is correct.
We do not try to prevent the Scouts from functioning as a society with a religious base. The question is whether we can voluntarily participate in its rites. I am not endorsing paganism if I drive a Mercury or Saturn car. Your friend seems to be trying to obscure the real issue here.
My question has to do with Pioneers... at what age can a child begin to participate in the activities? Also, besides religion, in what way are these activities different from what my child might experience in Boy/Girl Scouting?
I believe six is the age at which a child may begin participating in the Lutheran Pioneers and Lutheran Girl Pioneers program. You may receive answers to all your questions regarding these two church related organizations.
by contacting them directly. The toll free number for Lutheran Pioneers is (888) 214-8225 and it has an e-mail address of office@lutheranpioneers.org
The e-mail for Lutheran Girl Pioneers is lgp@execpc.com
The skills your child learns in the Lutheran Pioneers programs will be very similar to those taught in scouting. The important difference, of course, is the religious atmosphere in which these skills are taught. Scouting promotes a deism where reverence to a god is commanded, but the one true God of the Bible is never confessed. Lutheran Pioneers instructs in the light of Christ as the one and only Savior and motivates its young people by the gospel message of Christ.
A recent writer questioned whether the Girl Scouts still are a religious organization with religious standards for membership. The following quotations from recent Girl Scout handbooks address this issue.
After stating that the Scout Promise and Scout Law remain the foundation of the scouting program, the 1995 Guide for Cadette and Senior Girl Scout Leaders states:
When a girl becomes a Girl Scout, she makes the Girl Scout Promise and Law as part of her membership requirement. The Girl Scout Promise reflects the spiritual foundation of the movement. Because Girl Scouting encourages respect for the spiritual beliefs of others, girls may substitute a word representing their own faith for "God" in the Girl Scout Promise. This word should be one that most closely expresses their personal spiritual beliefs. The Girl Scout Promise in its written form will be printed with the word "God" in it.For most girls in your troop/group, there will be no change in the way they make the Girl Scout Promise. If the word "God" is not the most relevant word for a girl and there is any question of which word is most appropriate, you can work with her, her family, and religious leaders to find a substitute word to say. You will not find a list of appropriate substitutions from which to choose. The way a girl fulfills her beliefs is an individual matter and is not defined by Girl Scouting. You are not expected to judge the suitability of the word she has chosen. If you have questions or concerns, contact your Girl Scout council office for assistance.
The Girl Scouts retain a religious requirement for membership but allow it to be made to any god or to a substitute for God. Yet an adult ceremony for scouting says, "We, the members of the Girl Scouts of the United States of America, united by a belief in God and acceptance of the Girl Scout Promise and Law, do dedicate ourselves to the purpose of inspiring girls with the highest ideals of character, conduct, patriotism and service." It stresses that a Girl Scouts' Own is not a religious ceremony or service, but an inspirational occasion where Girl Scouts of every faith and creed can participate. Its content will depend on the design of the girls and their leaders. Scouting's religious awards are designed by the individual religions so they can include recognition for projects on devotion to Mary and for religions that reject the Trinity.We cannot say that such a group is "united by faith in God."
Does the WELS Church have any objection to The Boy Scouts? And, if so, why?
The Wisconsin Synod has historically voiced some objections to certain aspects of the Scouting movement. Scouting contains certain religious elements that promote a vague, Christ-less god and teach that all religions are equally valid ways of doing one's duty toward God. Scouting seeks to develop moral uprightness apart from faith in Christ in a way that can easily lead to work righteousness. The Scouting oath is an unnecessary oath that asks a boy to swear by something uncertain (his honor) to do something that is not in his power to do (his duty toward God). As Christians we recognize that it is God's will for us to trust in Jesus for salvation. We cannot do that on our own, but only by the power of the Holy Spirit working through the means of grace, the gospel in God's Word and the sacraments.We continue to look at new publications from the Scouting movement to see whether these objectionable features have been removed.
Since most scout troops have a diversity of beliefs, if a parent chooses to involve there child in this activity, wouldn't it then be the parent's responsibility to teach the child that salvation comes from believing in Christ as our savior, not by our own merit, doing good (or what we as man consider good) and that the scouting "beliefs" are secondary to our faith in God, and the works of the church?
We believe that parents should not subject their children to instruction and participation in religious activities which are contrary to the teaching of the Bible. We can't do wrong things even if we keep them secondary to our faith. If something is wrong, we have to avoid it, not keep it in a secondary position.Questioner responded to: Scouting
'Back up a little bit, I was a Brownie, so is my daughter. They are NOT taught religion, they are taught what it means to be friends, and to be nice to people. They do arts and crafts, and develop friendships and interests. Yes, the, promise says "to serve God", but our Pledge of Allegiance says "one nation, under God," our money has "in God we trust", in court, and in politics, witnesses and elected officials are sworn in by placing there hand on the Bible, and say "so help me God"? Does that then mean that it is "wrong" for us, as Christians, to say the Pledge of Allegiance, use the money, witness in court, or become an elected official? I am still missing where being a scout is "wrong".
Who decided it was wrong? Man? Can that same man tell me, WHICH religion of the thousands that are out there am I to follow to get into heaven? (In other words, which religion is the "right" religion?)
Our position on scouting is based on extensive study of the documents of scouting and on consultation with scout leaders. They clearly state that scouting is a religion-based movement. They have defended themselves against legal actions to make them admit atheists or homosexuals on grounds that they have religious standards. Our evaluation of the religious elements of scouting is based on the principles stated by the organization, not on what individual local groups may or may not do. The discussions of Scouting elsewhere on this site direct you to specific reference materials about this. (The position of the Girl Scouts is often less religious than that of the Boy Scouts.)
Why should a Christian not join the Masons or the boy scouts?
The Masonic lodge is based on the deistic religion: there is a Creator God who rewards good and punishes evil, but he may be worshipped in many forms and under many names. In deistic religion salvation is not by grace alone through faith in Christ alone, but based on good works. Also the oaths and rituals of the lodge have many objectionable features. Many books and pamphlets are available that give this information in much detail.The objection to scouts is essentially the same. The principle of scouting is that scouts can do their duty to God in many different religions. It is this equating of work righteous religions with Christianity that makes scouting objectionable. See the other posted answers on this topic.
I just read your answer to boy scouts and Mason's and I am sure you are referring to many others. You state that these organizations have objectionable features. Does not life in this world have objectionable features? Can you destroy the whole thing because you think some of it isn't right? Aren't there many passages in the New Testament that also refer us to do good works?
Both the Masons and the Boy Scouts make religious claims and offer to assist in moral development. The Bible tells us to test the teachings of those who come as religious teachers and compare what they teach with what the Bible teaches (1 John 4:1, 6). Since the Masons and the Boy Scouts recognize religions other than Christianity as equal ways to salvation and encourage people to trust in their own good works for salvation, we recognize that they are false religions because they contradict what the Bible teaches. Salvation comes only by God's grace apart from our works (Ephesians 2:8-9) through faith in Jesus alone as our Savior (John 3:16-18, Acts 4:12). Since these religious groups teach contrary to Scripture we cannot join them (Romans 16:17-18; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18).Although both the Masons and the Boy Scouts promote civic righteousness, we must distinguish between good works in the eyes of human beings and good works in the eyes of God. Only those who believe in Jesus as their Savior can do good works in the eyes of God (John 15:5).
Have the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts taken actions to move away from being para-relegious organizations? Does the WELS still view participation in Scouts as a church fellowship issue? I have heard that a memorial may be introduced at this year's Convention regarding the Scouts. Is this correct? If so, what does it say?
The Boy Scouts are among the most respected organizations in this country, and the skills, activities, and companionship which they offer could be a benefit to any child. Yet for more than 60 years the Wisconsin Synod has warned its members that their children should not participate in the scouting program.Our basic objection to scouting was that the required promise and law contain religious elements which imply that the Scout can do his duty to God regardless of what religion he belongs to. This contradicts the clear statements of Scripture that no one can perform works pleasing to God without faith in Christ.
Over the years the wording of the scout law and its explanation has become vaguer and less offensive, but the religious principles have been maintained. All members of the Scouts must accept the scout oath and law, but they may interpret it in their own way. For example, an atheist boy who refused to promise to do his duty to God was denied membership, but when he took the oath with the understanding that "god" was not a personal being, he was permitted to join. This is certainly a very offensive interpretation of the concept of "duty to God."
Recognition of the religious basis of scouting is not limited to the WELS. Advocates of strong separation of church and state have objected to the promotion of scouting in public schools because of its religious requirements.
Because the religious requirements of scouting remain unchanged our WELS congregations cannot make use of the scouting organizations. We have a better option in the Lutheran Pioneers, which provide many of the same benefits as scouting, without the objectionable religious requirements.
The religious principles of scouting remain unchanged, but there has been one notable development. The increased vagueness of the scouting literature and the fact that some scout troops may make little use of the religious features make it more difficult for pastors and teachers to convincingly demonstrate from the scout handbook the false religious principles which underlie scouting. This makes it more difficult to convince parents that their children should not belong to the Scouts.
The Girl Scouts are a separate organization, but the same principles and observations apply to that group also. The religious element seems to be even less conspicuous in Girl Scouts than in the Boy Scouts.
Those who would like to make a more thorough study of the current situation are referred to the 1991 study prepared by our synod's Committee for Information on Organizations, which is available from your district president.
There is no memorial concerning Scouting in the 1997 Book of Reports and Memorials. If any such memorial is submitted, it would be received by the delegates as supplemental material.
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Bravo! Bravo!