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I am a member of a predominantly WELS family. The main people in this situation are lifelong WELS. A couple of months ago, my mother and I attended a bridal shower for my cousin who was living with her fiance. I had spoken to my cousin about this issue privately by phone months earlier when I had first found out about it.
At the shower, she was in a conversation with someone else and that person asked her where she was living. She replied that her official address was "here" (meaning her parent's home) but that she had moved in with her fiance. She further commented that if the pastor found out he probably wouldn't marry them. It was this last comment that we responded to. My mom and I both looked at her and my mother said "shouldn't that tell you something?" and I said "yeah, it really should".
Again, she hadn't been in conversation with us, but we were in a room full of women openly moving in and out of each other's conversations. We didn't have to eavesdrop to hear what we did. When we replied, we didn't yell at her, point a finger in her face, tell her she was an awful person, etc. We questioned what she said in normal speaking tones. She began yelling at us that "you all did it" (which was true in some cases and not in others) and left the room crying.
Someone told her mother that we were "attacking" her and her mother began yelling at us. Her mother yelled things at me that were mistakes I had made in the past that were, to me, private and ones that I have repented of and removed from my life. She did this saying "I didn't say anything to you at the time". My mom and I left the shower as it was clear that they had felt that we had just been awful to my cousin and we were stunned that what we said could have been considered an attack.
We've since been accused of having gone to the shower looking for an opportunity to come down on my cousin, that we could have picked a better time and place to say something, that we "exposed our family differences" in public, that we think we're better and that we're so "holier than thou". My aunt and other family members have repeatedly brought up sins that I've committed and used them, to me, like black mail. The feeling I get from things they've said are that because of these things I have done, I shouldn't, or have no right to, have said anything to my cousin. They say they're bringing them up to show that none of us are perfect and if I was going to "attack" someone I had better be prepared to be "attacked" back.
I have not lived a perfect life by any stretch of the imagination. I wish I could say that I had been a virgin when I married but I wasn't. My (now) husband of 5 years and I stopped having sex several months before we were married because we knew that premarital sex was wrong and we wanted forgiveness and to ask God's blessing on our marriage. We didn't live together until we were married. Over the last 6 years or so, the Lord has brought us much closer to Him through faithful church attendance, participation in the sacraments, Bible studies and christian fellowship. I am actually now more aware of my sinful nature than ever and am thankful for the forgiveness the Lord shows me daily.
My main questions are these:
I can say with a clean conscience that we did not have any intention of bringing the issue up at her shower, and we weren't waiting for an opportunity for her to bring it up. Another aunt of mine has repeatedly claimed that this issue was between my cousin and God and that I "made a bad decision" when I said anything to her about it. I've also heard that maybe sometime in the future my cousin will talk to God about all of this. I've been told that everyone at the shower knew of my cousin's living arrangements and they (mostly WELS women) "couldn't have cared less". I have also been told that these WELS women wonder more how we could have treated other Christians (them) as we had.
- Based on my imperfect past, was I a hypocrite to say anything to my cousin?
- Isn't it our responsibility to each other to remind someone when they are straying from God's will for our lives, even though we are also sinners?
- Were we wrong to respond when and where we did?
Please clarify the WELS position on this whole issue for me. Is this a position that varies from WELS church to WELS church? (They go to a different church than I do). Last question (for now) I promise. Is being engaged the same as being married? My cousin has said she and her fiance felt as if they were married. My aunt claims that, per the Bible, once you are engaged you are the same as married. Our family has basically split as feelings were hurt on both "sides" of this. Through letters and phone calls we have been trying to repair things. I have not wanted to do any of this in person as, at the shower, anything I have said was turned against me and not understood the way I meant it. It has also been misrepresented. My aunt has apologized to me for hurting me by making some of my past public. She has not, nor has anyone else in my extended family, assigned any responsibility to my cousin or witnessed that what my cousin was doing at the time was wrong (then or now). The focus and scrutiny has been mostly on me and on what I have or haven't done. They say they are now tired of this issue and that we are family and we should all just get past this. I think there are serious issues here that need to be addressed, even at the risk of being on the outs with my family.
To witness or not to witness, a confused WELS Christian.
Dear Friend,Thank you for your long letter, filled with so many questions.
Obviously, what was said and where it was said had an impact upon the people you said it to. Your cousin would not have left the room crying, if it did not have an impact. Your aunt would not have attacked you, if there was no feeling of guilt or concern.
What you have described shows us the wisdom of the way Jesus encourages us to rebuke our brothers and sisters in the Christian church (Matthew 18:15-20). The context of that chapter tells us that we should be rebuking out of love (vs. 1-14). Verses 15-20 tell us how to go about it. You are living the fact that you did not follow the steps as outlined by Jesus. The earlier phone conversation you had with your cousin was only the beginning of your private admonition. You have seen how defensive people get. They turn against the one trying to correct them and try to defend themselves in public because they were accused in public. There is wisdom in going privately first.
At the same time, your cousin was very open about her sin. She told other people publicly that she was doing something that was wrong. She was trying to deceive her pastor about her sin of living together in a sexual way so that he would marry her. She admitted her wrong. It would have been better, if at that point you could have taken her aside privately and talked with her. But the point is, she knew it was wrong.
She might think that it is something wrong to the church, but not to society and not to God, because she was engaged, and engagement, she might have been thinking, was the same as marriage. That seems to get us to your next major question. Is engagement the same thing as marriage? No. The engaged people in the Bible did not live together with each other as husband and wife, having sexual relations and living together in the same house, until after they were married. Engagement is not "tantamount to marriage" in the sense that engagement is the same thing as marriage and two engaged people can engage in sexual relations without sinning. Engagement is a human custom. The Bible describes the human customs of the time: Rebekah and Isaac, Joseph and Mary. Engagement in America today is the promise to make the commitment promise of marriage in the future at a definite time. After the commitment promise of marriage is made in a public way, God and society and the government all recognize that there is a marriage here. It should not be broken. So, being engaged does not give a couple the sexual privileges and blessings of marriage. Engagement and marriage are not the same thing. Sex between two engaged people is sin. Hebrews 13:4, "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." Sex after marriage is a blessing of God upon marriage.
This brings you to the question about hypocrisy. All of your life, you will face the charge that you and your husband had sexual relations prior to your being married. When it comes up, you can say, "Yes, that is true. We are both very sorry before God that we did that sin. We have both confessed our sin to God and have asked him for his forgiveness. We know that we will bear the earthly shame of that sin as long as we live. We rejoice that God in Heaven has forgiven us because of Jesus." Then you can continue, "Please, learn from our mistakes. Don't do what we did. Stay right with God. If you are sinning right now, confess your sins to God and receive his forgiveness. Then live the fruits of your forgiveness by stopping your sin."
You are not a hypocrite for speaking out against sin. We are all sinners. If only the non-sinner could speak against sin or try to encourage a sinner to repentance, no one could do it because all of us are sinners.
I would encourage you and your mother to ask your aunt and cousin if you could privately talk with them about this issue. I would think that you and your cousin should maybe talk about it privately and then you and your aunt, etc. Begin by humbly confessing your sin of having sexual relations with your husband prior to marriage. Say that you were wrong. Say that you are sorry for that sin. Tell her that you rejoice in God's forgiveness. Ask her to confess her sin to God. Ask her to take responsibility for her sin and to ask God for forgiveness. Then talk to her about how moving back home prior to the wedding. Stopping her sexual relations with her fiancé will be a fruit of her repentance that is pleasing to God. Do all of this very humbly. Talk about your love for her. Talk about your sorrow that it all came out publicly after she publicly admitted what she was doing.
It is unfortunate that the scrutiny has been on you. That often happens when the rebuke is public. Go privately to these people and privately turn the responsibility to them.
God's blessings. It might be good for you to talk with your pastor and ask him for encouragement as you continue to make your personal witness privately.
My boyfriend and I were recently discussing the possibility of our future marriage. The question we were wondering is, what does it say scripturally about marriage practices, specially 'having' to be married in a church rather than on a mountainside? We would appreciate any insight you could give us on this topic.
Dear Friend,There is nothing in the Scriptures that say that you must be married in church, or even that you must be married by a pastor. The custom of a church wedding is followed by many Christians because they want to show the world who is first in their lives, Jesus Christ their Savior, and they want the world to see it publicly. If they get married in a church, it's quite obvious. Often people have gotten married on a mountainside because they are nature worshippers and not Christians. But one may be struck by the beauty of a certain mountain view and want all of your guests to share that view without any pagan connotations connected with your decision to be married on a mountainside.
Another reason that people want to get married in a church is because of the convenience and logistics of it. It's indoors. Weather is not a factor. It is usually large enough to hold all the people that the couple wants to observe the marriage service. The church has a lot of practice putting on weddings and things generally go quite smoothly in a church wedding. People, including the elderly, can get to the wedding service held in a church. It can be more difficult on a mountainside.
There is nothing in the Old Testament or the New Testament which says that a marriage service must be held in a church. Christians usually do it because of the witness they want to make and because of the convenience and practical benefits that come with a church wedding.
May God bless your plans!
My 18-year old daughter called me on November 4 and announced her engaged to another 18-year old. They are both Christians, and they are both in Security Forces for the U.S. Air Force. They have set the wedding date for March 8, 2003, because they both will be stationed for two-years in separate states; she will be in Florida and he will be Hawaii.
They have met some resistance from friends and family. However, I cannot recall in passages in the Bible that state that people should be a certain age, and/or that they must have real life experiences (i.e., other relationships and/or experiences with the opposite sex). Her father, who is a reborn Christian, just recently got married, and feels that he has made a major mistake, however, at 46, his mistake should not be construed to be that they would be making a mistake by marrying. Believe me, when I was married to her dad, I married at 20 and he was 30, and I was really committed to our marriage. However, society reared its ugly head and destroyed our marriage, because I was married to a perpertrating believer, who was really a non-practicing believer, not that it makes a difference.
I have talked at length with the both them and expressed that they think long and hard about whether they are ready for this type of commitment. Her finance's response has been that this is who God has instructed him to marry, and he will wait until she is ready to marry (i.e., he wanted them to get married now so they could be stationed together, however, I stressed to them, that because they both received their first duty-base choices, that if they are meant to be, 2-years should not destroy the commitment, but should strengthen it). I don't believe you place too much distance that if this is of God's will, it will not happen.
How can I get them to disregard the negativity they are being fed based on societal statistics? What words of advice would you offer them? They are both going to undergo premarital counseling, albeit they will only be state-side locally for 10 days, and that's a lot to cover in that short period of time, not to mention, their wedding will officially occur before their 2-year assignments end. I have placed this in God's hand, because I really think that if it is God's will, what will be will be. But, I don't think people should base their advice and opinion on their past experiences, because no two people are alike, and who is to say that they would make the same mistakes that others have.
Dear Friend,You are right about advice giving. One should not give advice based only upon personal experiences or statistics.
The two year wait should help them make sure that this is the right thing to do. Their promise to get married two years from now is a serious step. They will both be 20 years old when they marry, if I have done my math right.
Culture (the culture in which we live, the culture in which we grew up, the culture where we work, and our "culture" as a believer in Jesus Christ) works for or against marriage, regardless of the age of the people being married. You are right to be concerned that the negativity stops, and the positive be presented to them. That is why I was so happy to hear that they are going to receive pre-marriage counseling together prior to leaving for their assignments. Perhaps there is a way that they might receive pre-marriage counseling again just prior to their wedding date. It might have to be done by different WELS pastors, but the renewal in the Word of God will be important.
Finally, God is the glue that holds marriages together. As you have done, commit the matter to our God of love, in prayer. He sent His only Son, Jesus, to be our Savior. Jesus loved us so much so as to suffer and die for us. God will not leave us, nor forsake us. His faithfulness and His love are all shown to us in Jesus. He has the same love for the two of them. Encourage your two young people to stay active in the Word of God.
Send the their new addresses to:
Ms. Jacki SchleicherShe can direct their names and addresses to the WELS Military Contact Pastor who serves the base they will be assigned to. She also can help with overseas assignments.
WELS Commission on Special Ministries
2929 N Mayfair Road
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53222God's blessings as you serve your dear ones with the Word of God.
Grace and Peace in the Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
I am engaged to a wonderful woman who is a long-time member of the Greek Orthodox church. Although I would prefer to get married in my Lutheran Church, it seems as if that isn't going to happen. A couple of questions, please...
- Can I, in good conscience (without sin), get married in an Orthodox Church, keeping in mind that there is no command from scripture that marriage is only recognized if conducted in a Lutheran church, but not wishing to participate in a service that contradicts God's Word? (Part of me feels that I would be abandoning Christ's true teachings by submitting to an Orthodox ceremony).
- Assuming the answer to question one is "yes", how do I deal with the fact that part of the wedding service contains beliefs which I do not have (request for the intercession of saints, Orthdox belief that marriage is a sacrament, drinking from a cup of wine (symbolizing unity), kissing of priests hand/scriptures, etc.)
How do I deal with family members (in a loving way) who think and believe that I and our future children (if we're blessed with them) will be baptized and raised in the Orthodox faith. Both my future fiance and I intend to baptize any children in the Lutheran Church and raise them according to the Lutheran Confessions. However, my fiance's family speaks very little English and adhere strictly to Orthodoxy, although they are unaware of many of its teachings.
- Should I ask the priest (pastor) to remove contested portions?
- Is a request to state contested portions in Greek merely hiding heresy?
It is possible to be married in a church without accepting or participating in the religious rites of the church. Sometimes non-members of one of our congregations may marry a member of our church in our service without planning to join our church. I personally could not be married in a church of another faith or encourage someone to do so, for the reason you stated: it is hard to imagine how this can be done in practice without at least seeming to condone false aspects of that religion or even participating in them. It seems that this would be especially true in the very ritualistic and symbolic type of service which the Orthodox church has. You mentioned quite a number of problem areas in your question. It would not be right for you to participate in actions and words that are practices of the Orthodox church such as invocation of the saints. You would not want to appear to condone this.Some very important questions here are:
You don't want to deceive either her family or the Orthodox priest about your future intentions, nor do you want to deceive your family or fellow Lutherans by concealing the meaning of portions of the Orthodox service.
- Why does your wife-to-be insist on marriage in the Orthodox church if she agrees that the children will be Lutheran?
- Will she herself be Lutheran?
- Do her family and her priest know that the children will be Lutheran?
It seems that you and your fiancee need to talk about this more, from the perspective not only of what is easiest in the short term, but what is best and honest in the long run. It may seem easiest in the short term to make her parents happy by being married in the Orthodox church, but this will only put off the problem that will certainly arise if she and her children do not follow the Orthodox faith. It will only make matters worse if her parents feel they were deceived about the intentions with which the two of you entered marriage.
These are not the kinds of issues we can discuss by e-mail because personal contact and knowledge of the people involved are necessary. You and your fiancee need to talk about this more to be sure you have a clear understanding. Then, if this remains a problem, the two of you together need to talk about this with your pastor or another counselor whose judgment you trust. If that counselor understands your wife-to-be's reason for wanting to be married in the Orthodox church, her intentions for her own spiritual life in the future, and the degree to which she understands the difference between the Orthodox and Lutheran faiths, that counselor can help the two of you examine whether being married in the Orthodox church is really the best way to set your marriage on a solid foundation.
I have read many of the articles concerning soloists, outside musicians and non-WELS (or ELS) pastors at WELS wedding services. The exclusion of the non-WELS pastors make sense, since he would be part of leading the service. The musicians, however do not lead the service. If the WELS pastor approves the music selections, the musicians are not leading. We have these restrictions on musicians, but the bride or groom can be non WELS. What situation are we endorsing if we unite a WELS with a non-WELS member?
Marriage is an institution for life on earth. It is not in itself a spiritual commitment. People do not have to share the same faith to be married, but if both of them are seriously committed to their own church or religion, there may be difficulties, for example, concerning the religious life of the children. This should be discussed before the marriage.Since marriage is not a spiritual commitment but an earthly one, a marriage between a member of our church and a non-member could be held in our church if both parties agreed to the biblical principles of marriage (marriage is a life-long commitment, children are a blessing, etc.) and if the service was held in accordance with our beliefs and practices. Most pastors would require that both parties meet with the pastor to discuss the biblical principles of marriage.
While we cannot encourage or approve of a member's decision to be married in a church which we are convinced holds anti-scriptural positions, such a marriage would not in itself be a cause of church discipline against the member. Under such circumstances a person should not participate in the rites of the other church, for example when the Lord's Supper is offered as part of the ceremony. To agree to such a marriage ceremony could be sin, for example, when someone agreed to it because of indifference to religious differences or unwillingness to testify to what he or she believed.
We are not endorsing the decision of a WELS member to marry a non-WELS member if we agree to allow them to be married in the church. We would warn against the dangers that the particular situation raises, but this is their decision.
The matter of musicians which you refer to in passing is discussed in a number of answers in the site archive. One of them follows:
Our principle from Scripture is that to join together in worship people should be united in the teachings of the Bible. In practice this means that people who do not share our faith cannot serve as musicians in our wedding and funeral services since these are worship services of the church. What we teach is summarized in this section adapted from the book Church Fellowship: Working Together for the Truth:
A major source of conflict is the desire of members to have non-members participate in wedding services and the like. Here again we can ask the same questions as above, Do we want this person to participate to meet musical needs or musical wants? Will our wedding service be a better testimony to our faith if we use the talents God has provided within our fellowship of faith or if we place our desire for musical beauty ahead of giving an unambiguous testimony to the truth?"If the reason for wanting non-members to participate in the service is not musical quality, but personal friendship, a second factor comes into play. Is there an unwillingness to give a clear and honest testimony to friends and relatives concerning the doctrinal differences which divide us? Is it really love for our friends to allow them to hold the impression that the doctrinal differences which divide us are not that important? If there are doctrinal differences separating us from those who desire to participate in the wedding, love requires that we give a clear testimony to them of the seriousness of the doctrinal differences that prevent them from taking a leading role in a service of our church.
We can help our members and their friends understand the reasons for our position if we give regular, clear instruction on the nature of a church wedding. What happens in a church wedding? The Word of God is proclaimed, we pray, we praise God, and people declare that they intend to obey God's will. A church wedding is, therefore, no different from any other worship service, except that God's Word and our worship are applied very directly to the marriage of two people.
Scripture teaches us that only people who agree with the teachings of the church should lead its services. Wouldn't it be strange if we invited someone who did not agree with our beliefs to speak a message from God's Word to us? Isn't it just as strange to invite such a person to sing a message from God's Word or to remind us of such a message by playing the melodies which bring it to our minds. For this reason, our practice is that we do not permit persons from outside our fellowship to serve as organists and soloists during services of our church.
The practice of allowing such participation by non-members before the invocation or after the benediction, which a few congregations have apparently adopted, is not to be recommended because it too easily becomes a way of evading the issue. Is it valid to claim that the music immediately before and after the service is not part of the worship? If the music has been well-chosen, the organist has begun our worship of God even before any members of the wedding party have entered the church.
The second problem is that such a practice can easily give the impression that we are more concerned to uphold the letter of an arbitrary law than we are to fulfill the evangelical purpose of our fellowship practice, which is to give a clear testimony against false teaching. Is it really love for friends and family to let them think that the doctrinal differences which divide us are not that harmful and that practicing the biblical principles of church fellowship is a burden which we seek to evade?
When pastors give careful, loving, and on-going instruction about the biblical principles of church fellowship, it is less likely that these problems will have to be dealt with at emotional occasions such as weddings and funerals, when there is great pressure to compromise to avoid conflict. It must be granted, however, that our principles and practices of fellowship will remain offensive to many people, just as many other parts of God's Word are.
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Bravo! Bravo!